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Abigail Kochunas's avatar

This was the best Christmas present everrrr! Two of my favorite people in conversation and agree with Mark’s comment, raw and real. Fantastic episode. Thank you Rachel!

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Rachel White's avatar

Thank you, Abigail! I thought of you the whole time-- your courage inspires me alongside that of Mark, Bonnie, and many others who broke free of their invisible chains of bondage to do the hardest thing ever: wake up and get out. Now, if we could ALL do that...well, the world would be a different place, wouldn't it?

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Abigail Kochunas's avatar

God I hope the rest of the world does it! Thank you for saying that as it definitely didn’t feel courageous at the time. Waking up is the most important thing we can do as humans right now.

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Mark Phillips's avatar

Fantastic chat Rachel, raw and real as always. thanks for the early release. 👍🏼

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Rachel White's avatar

Thank you so much-- and please check out Mark's incredible podcast, as well as the Vow on HBO-- super fascinating dissection of how the "business of Woo" can be misused...and people can be exploited by seemingly "ethical" or "spiritual" people.

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Natalie Fehlner's avatar

Wow. This is such an important conversation. It was so enlightening to listen to two people who have specific traumas suddenly feel as if the whole world started displaying the exact behaviors they learned to pinpoint and avoid! These dynamics that happen within cults, happen within families, and also happen within politics, and to draw those parallels for people is really eye opening. Plus the frustration with other people always pretending like "the thing didn't happen," that hits home for sure!! I also love Mark pointing out that narcissism is not a self-love, it is a self-hate, the opposite. In that same line of thinking, perhaps the joy he was referring to that some people get from destroying others, is not true joy. At least, I hope not. Lastly, "let people rage," "seek on your own terms," and "the sublime can be lonely." Preach.

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Lucy C's avatar

Thank you so much for sharing this!! 🎁💖

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Rachel White's avatar

Thank YOU Lucy! So glad it's resonating!

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Holly Brodt's avatar

I'm with Abigail, Merry Christmas to Me! This podcast was such an honest and open conversation about everything we know, think we know, and/or want to believe. It reveals not only "The Man Behind the Curtain," it also allows us to see the "Flying Monkeys" who enable it. I have many welcome hours ahead of me contemplating this transcript and listening a 2nd or 3rd time to the healing and open mindedness available to us all when the blinder are off and understand a different and better life is possible, be it from a cult, a relationship, a family, or trauma. Bravo!

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Rachel White's avatar

Thank you so much Holly-- Mark's work has really illuminated the Business of Woo for me, as well as helped with my own personal healing.

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